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Tech review on Mesafx! (Read 1526 times)
DenisF
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Re: Tech review on Mesafx!
Reply #15 - 01.02.04 at 01:42:20
 
Hm i actually have an old ATi Rage Mobility X-something lying in my drawr.. i don't think it has opengl nor d3d..
so 320*240 would make sense on it Happy
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« Last Edit: 01.02.04 at 01:42:34 by DenisF »  

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amp_man
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Re: Tech review on Mesafx!
Reply #16 - 01.02.04 at 08:19:00
 
Quote:
Hm i actually have an old ATi Rage Mobility X-something lying in my drawr.. i don't think it has opengl nor d3d..
so 320*240 would make sense on it Happy



This is from the original Rage Mobility:
Quote:
-Comprehensive support for DirectX (including DX6 texture compression) and Open GL API's


I'm thinking that 320 res would make more sense on something like a S3 Trio or an old Trident or something, lol
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Re: Tech review on Mesafx!
Reply #17 - 01.02.04 at 13:23:23
 
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First, look at QuakeGL. The MesaGL is showing some 256-color like textures and effects in some places, and the textures for the life meeter, ammo and text in general are having some strange "interlacing-like" effect on 640x480 resolutions.



er, you know.. quake HAS 256 color textures Cheesy
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Andrew Boiu
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Re: Tech review on Mesafx!
Reply #18 - 02.02.04 at 10:15:47
 
Quote:
What's your problem, man? What same proportions? Oh, sure I lied (minmax blending can't be done with Voodoo); so sue me!

Darm, I still have that blur look!  Roll Eyes
If you're talking about core, software renderers meet the full spec (yet they might be buggy). So there are no "same proportions". If you're talking about the 3dfx driver, then your logic need a lot of help, 'coz you lost me.

What you don't understand, is that you can't evaluate 3DNow using different engines. The only way is to compile Mesa WITH and WITHOUT 3DNow. I could almost bet you don't know how to compile both ways; that's why you are avoiding the issue.

Well, as I said, everyone's invited. Brian is really a nice guy!


Why, my boy, you think you're the hotshot only because you played Quake1 in SW? Heh...


Mesa is the base for the functions not supported in hardware, directly by the Voodoo, in OpenGL. Right? If so, then some of the functions and procedures might behave similar to some extent. So there is sense.

You would bet wrong.  I know very well how to compile by using, or not using 3DNow! instructions Mesa sources, but there is a great feeling of a lost time, since the results won't be those expected. Again, I am not avoiding it, I feel the lack of use of this action. In the past I compiled software using/not using 3DNow! instruction and the result varied, as the actual code, the one that is carried on by the FPU or ALU carried the big hit, sometimes it was 1% faster, sometimes 1% slower. It just depends primarily on the rest of the code.

However, I'll do the compilation of Mesa without 3DNow! instruction...

Every nice test is done on the following base for HW or SW OpenGL: Quake1+2+3, MDK2, GLClock, GLExcess...
But throught the testing experience, the results are quite scalar, and proportional between all these, at least for SW OpenGL.

By the way, GLClock is showing no coloring, no textures, no effects at all, just some black filled circles. FSAA is not computed (on SGI it was working, on MS it was working), DepthOfFieldBlur is. So it is very true the fact that if when running QuakeGl (which is the base for testing) you encounter problems, it is very likely that there are a lot more still to be discovered. QuakeGL proves the near 80% compatibility of the OpenGL base rasterizer with OpenGL 1.0 (3dfx minigl was not 100% OpenGL).

As i've said before, I've tested many OpenGL apps and games in SW, including 2001 released OpenGL games, as it is worth for performance analysis.
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Andrew Boiu
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Re: Tech review on Mesafx!
Reply #19 - 02.02.04 at 10:18:11
 
Quote:
er, you know.. quake HAS 256 color textures Cheesy


256 collors effects on the screen! This is what is strange, as QuakeGl computes effects (glares,flares) in 24bit color internally.
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Andrew Boiu
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Re: Tech review on Mesafx!
Reply #20 - 02.02.04 at 10:27:13
 
Quote:
I will badmouth 320 resolution all I like, 320 looks like SH!T! Nobody plays jack in 320 res, so why should the performance in it matter? If you still use 320 and have anything better than a 486SX 33MHz, you have some problems. How many FPS do you get at 800*600 or higher, anyways? I seriously doubt it's anything near two, if you get 50 at 320.  What are your specs, 50FPS in QuakeGL at 320 res is pretty damn crappy.  

ANYWAYS, my point really is that speed should not be nearly as much of a factor in this review as COMPATABILITY should be.



For the fun of it, I've seen some ATI technology demo's in 320x200 with 6xFSAA. It is not so bad actually. Again 320 res has sense if you can achieve 50+ fps in there.

High res were really invented as there was a greater need for less jagged lines, and more space for colors, or for design (CAD 80's era). But in the later 90's, high res (1280x960 and more)were only forced into the markets because of the larger monitors where low res are not having the same dot dimensions as intended, and become less comfortable to the eye. For you, it is 50fps+ in QuakeGL on SW render on a 600Mhz CPU. Happy?

Compatibility was the thing I mostly attacked.
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Micha
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Re: Tech review on Mesafx!
Reply #21 - 02.02.04 at 10:48:01
 
Quote:
For the fun of it, I've seen some ATI technology demo's in 320x200 with 6xFSAA. It is not so bad actually. Again 320 res has sense if you can achieve 50+ fps in there.

High res were really invented as there was a greater need for less jagged lines, and more space for colors, or for design (CAD 80's era). But in the later 90's, high res (1280x960 and more)were only forced into the markets because of the larger monitors where low res are not having the same dot dimensions as intended, and become less comfortable to the eye. For you, it is 50fps+ in QuakeGL on SW render on a 600Mhz CPU. Happy?

Compatibility was the thing I mostly attacked.


why using 320x200 with 6xfsaa when i can switch to 800x600 or higher getting an equal or even better picture on my screen? there wouldn't be any compatibility problems, you know that, and i can achieve also 50+fps at those res. btw, games just look sharper, better and more "life-like" @ high resolutions. that's the aim of game graphics, isn't it? last point: larger monitors are better for the eyes, aren't they?
you see, everything you critizised has a simple cause, think it over!  Wink
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« Last Edit: 02.02.04 at 10:49:35 by Micha »  

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Andrew Boiu
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Re: Tech review on Mesafx!
Reply #22 - 02.02.04 at 11:08:20
 
The only thing you get with higher res (to some extent) gets you near to the CGI concept in computer graphics.

Larger monitors can confuse even more, as you can't catch with the eye all the screen, just parts of it. Look at the driver situation in a car. He sees in 1/100 of a sec one part of the road, or the lane next to his right or left. He gets more and more confused as the traffic becomes heavy. Similarly when on a big screen you are playing a game. You must stay at quite a distance to eliminate this effect. This is not so simple if you have a monitor, and you are keeping as usual at a 30-50cm in front of you.

I've seen games in low and high res. Most of them however are not more of a fun when in high res. It's the rest of the game that can make the res a plus in quality. Think textures: if they are jerky, or less polished, what difference does it makes? Most of the time, developers create a tree by using CGI techniques. This way you get nothing when on high res. The only real benefit would be if nearly everything was photographed from real life and then digitize it. But this requires a very big time to be available, and photographing lots of trees, taking 5 photo's from outside of a house costs too much to be economic. So there are very few cases in which a res increase would be 100% and trully obligatory.

CGI computer techniques stands for: Computer Generated Images. You basically draw something similar to a real thing, by equations. Then you translate the image created into a digital format. Finish.
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dborca
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Re: Tech review on Mesafx!
Reply #23 - 02.02.04 at 13:48:22
 
Quote:
Mesa is the base for the functions not supported in hardware, directly by the Voodoo, in OpenGL. Right?

Mesa is the base for everything. Even HW functions need vertices to work on.

Quote:
You would bet wrong.  I know very well how to compile by using, or not using 3DNow! instructions Mesa sources, but there is a great feeling of a lost time, since the results won't be those expected.


No sh!t, eh? My feeling grows stronger. If I "could almost bet" a few days ago, now I'm just one step to "taking a bet". Stop babbling and compile it already! If you take the time of all your posts here, in this thread, divide it by 3, then you still supercede the time taken to compile Mesa again.

Oh, andf FYI, I just committed a bugfix for GL_NEAREST texture sampler today. You might want to check again.

I still can't see your posts on Mesa-dev mailing list. We are looking forward to them; and I am sure it contains fixes / suggestions, also.
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amp_man
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Re: Tech review on Mesafx!
Reply #24 - 03.02.04 at 03:09:25
 
Quote:
For the fun of it, I've seen some ATI technology demo's in 320x200 with 6xFSAA. It is not so bad actually. Again 320 res has sense if you can achieve 50+ fps in there.


Well, I'd like to kill that theory right off the bat. Running in Unreal Tournament on an Athlon XP 1800+/Radeon 9500 system, with everything at stock speeds, here are a few of my findings:

First off, frame rates:
320x240, NoAA: 146.2
320x240, 6x AA: 129.6
1024x768, NoAA: 130.9
1024x768, 6x AA: 120.5

I had planned on posting pics to show the image quality, but I thought that falconfly supported image uploads, he doesn't. Basically, even with the 6x AA, 1024x768 was much better than 320x240, and faster too. 320 has absolutely no sense what so ever.

Quote:
High res were really invented as there was a greater need for less jagged lines, and more space for colors, or for design (CAD 80's era). But in the later 90's, high res (1280x960 and more)were only forced into the markets because of the larger monitors where low res are not having the same dot dimensions as intended, and become less comfortable to the eye. For you, it is 50fps+ in QuakeGL on SW render on a 600Mhz CPU. Happy?


No actually I'm not. Higher res's, first off, weren't invented, they simply were be put into the hands of the average consumer in 3D applications. Simulation boxes were doing 1024x768 res long before the consumer got their hands on it, the technology simply wasn't fast enough for the hardware to reliably support it, so support wasn't provided or sought after. But even as far back as the old 1988 Trident ISA card I used to have supported 1024x768 in 2D. Also, where do you get the 600MHz CPU, is that yours? And if you're only getting 50FPS on that, with a game designed to run on a 486 50MHz, I think you need to check that vsync is off.

Quote:
Larger monitors can confuse even more, as you can't catch with the eye all the screen, just parts of it. Look at the driver situation in a car. He sees in 1/100 of a sec one part of the road, or the lane next to his right or left. He gets more and more confused as the traffic becomes heavy. Similarly when on a big screen you are playing a game. You must stay at quite a distance to eliminate this effect. This is not so simple if you have a monitor, and you are keeping as usual at a 30-50cm in front of you.


Yeah, great analogy Roll Eyes. The thing that you fail to mention about that is that, like a car, the clearer an approaching image is, the easier it is to make out. If you see a sign at 320x240 resolution, you're going to have to squint like hell to make it out, because you will either have a really tiny screen or a really boxy image (unless you've got a V5 6k with 8x FSAA Grin), or some of both, whereas with higher resolutions, it can be destinguished easier, even on larger screens. I don't know how much sense that makes, but it makes about as much sense as your analogy does. Also, higher/lower resolutions are much more likely to hurt your eyes, other than doing a bunch of squinting, then low refresh rates are.

Quote:
I've seen games in low and high res. Most of them however are not more of a fun when in high res. It's the rest of the game that can make the res a plus in quality. Think textures: if they are jerky, or less polished, what difference does it makes?


I remeber games in low res too. Wing Commander used to be the bomb, at 320 res on my good old 486SX 33MHz, with one of those 3x multiplier things on it, so it worked like a 100MHz. The point is, hardware has evolved, or at least been raised in clock speed to the point where people think that it's evolved. You can't expect to run brand new games at high res and max details with a 600MHz P3?.

More to come...
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amp_man
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Re: Tech review on Mesafx!
Reply #25 - 03.02.04 at 03:11:25
 
...And here's the rest, for now at least

Quote:
Most of the time, developers create a tree by using CGI techniques. This way you get nothing when on high res.


Right. Lets go back to Wing Commander for a sec. The textures were designed to look good at 320x240 resolution. Anything higher than that would simply make the ailsing less obvious, but the textures would still be those same 320 textures, just smaller and more of them. On the other hand, something like Unreal Tournament's textures have been created for much higher resolutions, say 1024 (just becuase I like it). At 320, those 1024 textures are simply lowered in quality, and the screen shows less of the scene because the images are larger. But at 1024, you get much better scenery, because the engine can actually adjust for that, to bring more lifelike scenery into play, and make the whole effect worth it. And if that doesn't run well enough, you optimize driver settings, lower details, and as a last resort, lower the resolution. Did you notice the difference above when I went from 320 to 1024 res without AA? 16 FPS. That's barely a 10% loss in performance, between those two extremes. Well, this is drifting away from my original point, but then again, I'm still trying to figure out what yours was...

Quote:
The only real benefit would be if nearly everything was photographed from real life and then digitize it. But this requires a very big time to be available, and photographing lots of trees, taking 5 photo's from outside of a house costs too much to be economic. So there are very few cases in which a res increase would be 100% and trully obligatory.


Hmm, photographs...you don't honestly think that photographs are 3D do you? Oh, you want to digitalize them into 3D, is that what you're saying ??? Not only would that not be cost effective, but it would also be extremely stupid. After all that digitalization, you might have quality comparable to a decent 3D game, and then try running it, or even storing it. But how does that relate to res?

And then to finish:
Quote:
Compatibility was the thing I mostly attacked.


GLQuake tests compatability? Bull SH!T!! You need to get some common sense. GLQuake runs on nearly any PC with some sort of 3D accelerator. It only uses a small portion of the OpenGL, and being created in 1996, it uses a very early revision of OpenGL. So how exactly does that test compatability? You ran a measly test in insane (although this word normally implies the opposite extreme) resolutions, and expect us to even think of that as a valid review of all the capabilities of MesaFX? I don't think I even need to say any more Angry

I simply have GOT to get my other box back up and running so I can see what MesaFX can really do, this review doesn't tell anyone anything.

Andei, give it up. You are fighting with a master driver developer whose knowledge far surpases your own, and a forum of people dedicated to preserving 3dfx's legend. You can't come in here promoting a bunch of trash drivers (I have tried them, by the way, and they suck on NFS 3 and 5 Tongue), then start trash talking about the greatest thing to hit 3dfx owners in a long time. If you don't like MesaFX, then don't use it. But don't come here trying to talk like GLQuake at 320 res is an accurate benchmark to compare MesaFX to something that's been optimized like hell to run it, it's just stupid. You want to post some real benchmarks, like Half Life or UT 2003, in decent resolutions, 800*600 at the least, then be my guest, these would be fair comparisons, but don't bother going any further with this GLQuake crap, it's not worth anyone's time.
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FalconFly
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Re: Tech review on Mesafx!
Reply #26 - 03.02.04 at 08:33:14
 
And *ugh* I shall add :

I operate Monitors from anywhere to 15" upto 21", and your "CGI theory" is honestly the most complete, utter nonsense I've heard in my life...

(anyone who sits 30-50cm from a 21 inch Monitor (!) needs professional help ASAP, but that's certainly not the Monitor's fault)

Somtimes, Boui, I think you're a Troll.

You write in great detail about things, that, after a short analysis, one can only assess you don't know alot (upto effectively nothing) about.
Yet, you still continue to elaborate and exhibit the old, known ignorance you seem so blessed with Roll Eyes

And looking at this entire Thread you labeled "Tech Review on MesaFX", I can only say :
"Reviews" should be limited to people who actually understand the technology
Tongue

[quote]I guess this is the right time to get to some in-depth look at Mesa OpenGL. [/qoute]
Nothing wrong with that, but you are simply unable to create something like that. Period.

You go play the latest Games in 320x200 if you wish, but please : spare us of your unknowledgable talk !
Don't expect 'tech babysitters' to correct all your basic errors in realtime (which would be required), and the only real Problem I have with you writing all that nonsense, is that inexperienced Users might be tricked into believing you would actually know about what you're writing.

I'd hate such nonsense to spread from this Forum as a Source, because it pulls down the quality of it by a fair amount. Now that would be unacceptable in my quality terms. Roll Eyes
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« Last Edit: 03.02.04 at 08:35:36 by FalconFly »  
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paulpsomiadis
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Re: Tech review on Mesafx!
Reply #27 - 03.02.04 at 09:18:47
 
About godd@mn time somebody put Boiu Andrei in his place for all of this ferkin nonsense he's been posting all over the 3Dfx forum! Roll Eyes

I was gonna' give him a swift kick ages ago, but couldn't be bothered to waste my time! Tongue

NOW he's been given SEVERAL! Grin

Down, sit, STAY! Angry

Nuff said! 8)
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« Last Edit: 03.02.04 at 09:19:53 by paulpsomiadis »  

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Micha
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Re: Tech review on Mesafx!
Reply #28 - 03.02.04 at 12:18:58
 
i fully agree with falconfly & amp_man, but there's one thing left:

Quote:
The only real benefit would be if nearly everything was photographed from real life and then digitize it. But this requires a very big time to be available, and photographing lots of trees, taking 5 photo's from outside of a house costs too much to be economic.

actually this is made! e.g. the developers of stalker took photos of tschernobyl and tried to reproduce the settings very detailed in their game. (great dx9 game, expected spring/summer/fall 2004) anyway, this might not be the way andrei mentioned ('cause that's just stupid), but it's the only way so far to reproduce realism economically.
allright, let's stop this senseless discussion here: mesa rules, quake1 sucks  8)
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dborca
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Re: Tech review on Mesafx!
Reply #29 - 03.02.04 at 13:04:42
 
Quote:
allright, let's stop this senseless discussion here: mesa rules, quake1 sucks  8)

Well, not quite! As Mesa rulez, I serendipitously discovered that Quake1 rulez, too!
I compiled Quake1 (using DJGPP compiler) in OpenGL mode; as an OpenGL driver I used Mesa software. Worked okay. Then I tried MesaFX for DJGPP (same codebase as the released DLLs) on top of Glide3x DJGPP. Played the entire first episode without glitches.

I haven't bothered with Quake1 for windoze, because people did that over time. Porting GLQuake sources from QIP was done in 15 minutes using a Linux OpenGL template.

And I remember the software Quake1 (the original) was built using DJGPP compiler.

Anyhow, I still can't see how is Mesa incompatible with Quake series... as BA tried to prove.

I am sorry the discussion derailed already...

@BA: you know, democracy works two ways:
-> you are free to speak whatever you feel.
<- the minority obeys the majority.

I shall quote an old saying from memory: "more dangerous than stupidity is fake-knowledge"

I tried to put you in your place back in that Banshee thread. It seems to me that every godd@mn member of this forum has to do it before you calm down.
And if I would ever change my site's name, it will be "BeyondReality", Because I deliver real stuff, while you deliver zilch!
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