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Which still doesn't change the fact that Hercules, not ATI ushered in major changes to the market.

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It's called "illustrating a point"

You contend that Hercules contribution wasn't important since they didn't make chips, on the other hand does that mean 3dfx wasn't important since they didn't sell boards till 1999 when they purchased STB?

So then by your own yardstick it's Motorola that initally revolutionised the market since they provided the graphics chips to Hercules... years before ATI was even a company.

So by your own logic, Motorola not ATI was first?

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Correct, 3dfx did indeed revolutionize the market in regards to graphics, 3D graphics to be precise.

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Hercules was selling cards before ATI was even a company.

Hercules became the gold standard of video cards at the time and still had a reputation as a giant in the industry right up till the late 90's.

ATI didn't do anything of import till the 8500 was released. Before that they had poor cards and worse drivers and only stayed in business by selling cheap cards to OEM's.

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You suggested going to a fanboy site and looking for fanboys, which I'll find no shortage of. I suggested going to a site with far less bias and see what the attitude of a larger number of PC hardware enthusiasts is.

Big difference.

Fanboys make up a tiny number of the market, if they had a larger impact I'd wager 3dfx would still be around since it can be argued that 3dfx had some of the most vocal fans.

Wasn't enough to save them was it?

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You indicated the forums would be not biased since those sites review hardware, if you had taken the time to at least look through the forums contents you would see this isn't the case AT ALL.

The forums are public areas and open to any posting in regards to hardware, good or bad.

If you spent any time at all page through the HardOCP site you would note that the editor of this very well known and successful site is very baised about some products and makes no bones about it and why when the subjects come up.

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I have not asked and he tends to deflect some questions. Most are in the hands of people who worked on the project or were left at 3dfx and destroyed.

I do know the locations of four boards for sure, maybe five.

You are the one playing games, not I.

The question was- Will there be a fan base for ATI or Nvidia if one goes under like there is now for 3dfx.

Since 3dfx not ATI or Nvidia revolutionized the *3D graphics market* (have to spell it out for some people) I doubt it.

All one has to do is visit a hardware board with no real bias in either direction and you will see most hardware graphics discussion is based on price/performance/features as opposed to raving fanboys.

(as an aside, people still talk fondly about their first Voodoo graphics or Voodoo II board even though they moved on long ago, no one talks about their first ATI board)

hold it there, Iknow heaps of people that talk about thier first ATi Gary, there are more ATi fanatics than 3dfx fans that is allready been proven.

I remember my first ATi card the RAdeon9700 pro, my neighbour had an 8 meg Mach64 from Ati great card he told me. I think there should be no competion what so ever, there are people that remember thier first Matrox and S3 my first VGA was a Trident 64 2MB Edo ram based card, I had great fun with that thing, played lots of Descent 1 with that and WolfenStein3D.

Life is not always about 1 thing I have learned that many times, Trident, Number Nine, Ati, nVidia, S3, Matrox, Cirus Logic, SGi Cobalt Graphics, Bit Boys haha they didn't get far did they but I still remember them, and ofcourse 3dfx.

therefore 3dfx wasn't the only one, thereare much older brands than 3dfx which were much more common, for a 1976 bloke like me an ATi card is more well known and common than a 3dfx card, because ATi is much older.

Anyway it's not that I care about it I will always be a 3dfx  & ATi fan, that won't stop me from go'n somewhere else.

I don't wan't to upset anyone this is what I hear from lot's of people in the European Union.

You are playing games again, keep it up.

ATI created nothing of note till the 8500- The IBM PC market had been in full swing long before ATI made a single board.

yeah my first ATI card was a 8500, i got it after it came out a couple of months and the drivers were the greatest bull$hit...

I'm also an avid ati fan  , but I dont let that influence my knowing that all 3d capabilities on models before 2000/2001 were IMO poor at best, although ati has always had pretty good 2D